Author Topic: 2000 Ways To Point A Finger  (Read 7976 times)

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Offline r2fly

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2000 Ways To Point A Finger
« on: August 05, 2006, 09:47:37 AM »
I occasionally hop onto this site, haven't been tempted to join until recently.  I was more than a bit surprised to see the level of sniping and one-sided bashing over an aircraft sale that fell through.  Guess it comes down to that aspect of human nature that keeps such respected publications such as "The Enquirer" in business, an eagerness to believe anything that appears in print.  Call me naive, but I've always believed the aviation community to be immune to such behavior.

Take some time to read and research the facts.  The comments below are easily available and corroborated by reading different posts by both parties.  The first thing that "rang false" here reminds of the the Shakespeare quote - "The lady doth protest too much".  No fair balance, no opposing viewpoint - but a huge number of allegations, innuendo and statements which ANY logical person (much less someone involved in aviation) would have a hard time swallowing.

Examples?
1.  Experience.  Seller = nearly 60 years as a pilot, Commercial/Instr.
                        (seems he has flown this aircraft for over 17 years)
                       Buyer = 20 or so hours since recieving Private license.

Considering the buyer's near total lack of experience, I have a hard time accepting many of the comments claiming the seller was confused with many features of his aircraft, that he flew it poorly, was "reluctant" to fly etc.  I also can't imagine a man surviving half a century of flight if his disregard for maintenance, weight/balance and basic airworthiness of an aircraft were anywhere near the buyer's claim.  

2.  False Statements.  

"Burt said he wouldn't fast taxi this plane"  
In his prior post, seller mentions an encounter with hail en-route to Oshkosh.  Mike Melville apparently took a look at the eroded leading edge of the canard, made some repair suggestions.  No mention anywhere of Rutan's involvement.  Nice choice of a high impact name though.  I found a similar tactic employed in this story, the association of the mechanic with the 911 terrorists - a thinly veiled attempt at creating "guilt through association".

"Coaxial cable connected to the starter"
This is patently ludicrous.  Amp load through a starter cable would instantly melt the copper.  This wouldn's budge a prop even once, much less present a fire hazard.

"Fly a strange new plane without comms"
As a tower controlled airport, Gillespie (SEE) requires 2-way comm.  Did the seller actually suggest taxiing and take-off using hand signals?

Since an awful lot of this story is clearly false, one can't help but wonder how much is true.  For instance, why would an A&P risk his livelihood for "$40 and lunch", sign off an inspection, admit to a total stranger he had never seen the airplane before and then pronounce the aircraft unsafe?  Call me cynical, but when I read or hear ANYTHING that is full of inaccuracy or lies - I usually stop reading.  If my limited knowledge of a subject tells me the author is in error - or worse, lying - I don't see how I can accept ANY part of the story.

No doubt the seller would like his deposit back, but in his own prior post he clearly states he has "purchased his LongEZ".  No mention of arranging a pre-purchase inspection, test flying or tire-kicking.  In his words this is a "done deal".  From everything I've read, it seems the seller acted in good faith.  Bad mag?  He replaced it.  Deposit received to secure purchase?  He took the aircraft off the market.  Buyer gets cold feet (for whatever reason)?  He's allowed to back out of the sale.  

Enough already. let's move on to more productive topics.

Offline xbirdone

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2006, 05:56:46 PM »
comms was a reference to communications between pilot and passenger.
the starter wire in question merely activates a solenoid and carries little load; it very well could have been coax, lamp cord, or just a shielded wire, and worked just fine; up to standards? who knows?
some mechanics can be bought for a lot less than $40 and lunch.
interesting that someone in San Diego now wants to sign on and chime in, attempting to protect the seller. Where is the airplane now? Is it still being advertised for sale? under repair? out of sight of FAA inspectors?log-books?contrary to popular belief, there are old and bold pilots, and they are frequently similar to the picture painted of the seller. the buyer was low time and new to aviation; so what. I do not know, and have never met the buyer. I considered buying the airplane in question, and it is junk. the seller should not have kept the deposit, as he was in no way injured in the transaction. he could have refunded the deposit and sold it to the next sucker who came along instead of being branded with "crook" and left holding the now well known long-ez. "Where there's smoke ..."

Offline Drew

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2000 Ways To Point A Finger
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2006, 08:14:09 PM »
<snip> 2. False Statements.

"Burt said he wouldn't fast taxi this plane"
In his prior post, seller mentions an encounter with hail en-route to Oshkosh. Mike Melville apparently took a look at the eroded leading edge of the canard, made some repair suggestions. No mention anywhere of Rutan's involvement. Nice choice of a high impact name though. <snip>

Nope---Allen is not making this up-----it is quoted right here (and you could not get it from a better source):

http://www.ez.org/firstflight.htm

Also---not related to the A&P in question----I have heard there is another A&P (in Southern CA) that was busted for pencil whipping (signing off that he did work on aircraft (like annuals) without doing any of the work----but collecting the money as though he had.  So yes---there are people out there who will take those kind of risks.  For most of us, this is very hard to imagine.

Using the wrong stuff in aircraft----happens all the time.  For example, people have used non aircraft bolts where required not knowing that there is a huge difference between the two.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Charles Davis

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Plane in SD
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2006, 06:34:50 PM »
I looked at the plane from 100 ft away, turned and got in my car and left.  Of course Allen could not have known this as he did not see the plane until after he paid his deposit.

The seller contacted me a couple of times about the plane and seemed anxious to find a buyer.  It has been on the market for a long time, and likely will be, so I don't see how the seller was hurt by "taking it off the market."

There are two sides to every story, but Allen seemed very credible and conscientious.

There are some really good used EZ's out there at a very fair price.  I hope Allen finds one.
Charles Davis
Louisville, KY

Offline spy

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finger pointing
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 11:27:50 PM »
....  i did read that  the $2000 dollars was a non-refundable deposit., if anyone agrees to that,without seeing or testing,,   Anything !!!..then they have it coming >>> would you pay for a  pair of shoes you have never tried on ??, knowing that it is non -refundable or non-returnable?  
   i would not put a deposit of any amount on anything i have not SEEN.
  >  A DEAL is  ,,still very much  A DEAL.. and should be honored. BY BOTH PARTIES.>   .
   HOWEVER....SOMETIMES..IT IS BETTER...TO BE  MORALLY AND ETHICALLY CORRECT... like giving the money back.
 
     another fault of the buyer is actually planning to fly a plane from california to virginia..on his first few hours in it knowing he has no SOLO  time so in an eze..and a low time pilot... danger, danger..in any airplane.  :shock:  ..

Offline xbirdone

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deals
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2006, 06:58:54 AM »
A non refundable deposit is only non-refundable when the seller delivers as advertised (or implies). i.e. an airworthy airplane that could "legally" be flown away; current and legal inspections (the A&P admitted that the signoff was bogus), in compliance with applicable FAR's, and most important: a safe aircraft. If a deal was a deal, then lawyers would be out of business .  ... If you paid a deposit on a pair of shoes, and on arrival you found they were not wearable and were made of paper, then you were mislead; Unethical and illegal. Argue all you want, the seller was wrong.

Offline r2fly

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Deal gone bad
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2006, 10:09:37 AM »
Had both parties been willing to negotiate a fair compromise, none of us would have ever heard about this.  No refund at all seems a bit harsh, but the buyer's actions after the fact virtually guarantee no future discussion.
Buyer could have very easily arranged an objective pre-purchase inspection.  Ah well, the clarity of hindsight.  We've all made mistakes when emotion overrules logic.  Spy is correct, a cross country trip in an unfamiliar airplane is ill advised for even an experienced pilot - for one recently licensed....very dangerous.

I could agree with Xbird's take if the aircraft in question is in fact, non-airworthy.  According to the buyer, the A&P admitted the signoff was bogus - not exactly the most objective source.  I have seen and flown a number of airplanes that weren't exactly "Airshow Pretty" (most banner, tow and cropplanes) but are maintained to standards more rigorous than most.  Though I prefer both, if I had to choose I'll take a mechanically sound plane over a clean and shiny death-trap.

Offline mcd

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2000 ways
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2006, 11:04:45 AM »
I agree that there is always two sides to any story but too many things mentioned could not be fabricated. The coax wire for the starter and the bolt head binding the controls. Having been a Navy crewman such as the buyer I'm pretty sure he knows what is safe and what is not however he did fly in the aircraft so maybe not. Al should give the man his money back and move on. Having met Al once I'm surprised that his aircraft was in such bad shape. Also surprised he would not give the deposit back.

Offline Drew

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2000 Ways To Point A Finger
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2006, 05:11:03 PM »
My understanding is that Allan also got stuck with paying for the old harness that went bad before he took possession----unless he did the credit card thing and canceled payment

One of the things that I did not really like (which I don't think Allan mentioned in his writeup) was that the conditional inspections were all signed off by the owner who did not hold the repairman cert.  Also, there was not a lot of logging any kind of maint actions---which to me is a red flag.  Now it is possible that all this stuff was logged on scrap pieces of paper somewhere-----but it was not in an orderly location like a logbook.  If all the above is true (I did not see the logs myself---but did talk to Allan at length about it), the airplane was unairworthy----an most likely had been flown illegally------which in my opinion requires a return of the money.  In the end, it is probably not cost effective to try to get the 2 grand back (unless you got lawyer friends that don't mind working for free).-----And for the owner---it was probably not cost effective to keep the money---sounds like he may have won the battle but lost the war.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline spy

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finger
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2006, 07:25:08 PM »
:D  like i mentioned buyer beware,!!,,,see it , feel it,,,FIRST.
  Also...this might just be a blessing to AL...because,  even if the plane was in good condition....being unfamiliar in the eze and a low time pilot,...could have really gotten him hurt or worse,, i have flown that route to sun and fun....the arizona, new mexico parts through las cruces and juares in the summer can get hairy...and dangerous. :lol:  good luck to all.