Author Topic: Aircraft Designator  (Read 15537 times)

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Offline flyingwaldo

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Aircraft Designator
« on: October 30, 2008, 02:47:47 PM »
I had been under the impression that the designator for a Long EZ was LGEZ and have used that with ATC for a couple years.  I just looked up aircraft designators for experimental aircraft and they only have 3, based on cruise speeds.  Anyone know which is correct?   ???

Offline go ez

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2008, 03:57:07 PM »
On flightplans I use VEZE for my VariEze and I think LGZE is for the Long Ez

ie

Manufacturer Model Type Designator Description Engine Type Engine Count WTC Photo
RUTAN Ares  ARES Landplane  Jet  1 L -
RUTAN 32 VariViggen  VVIG Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN 33 VariEze  VEZE Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN 40 Defiant  DEFI Landplane  Piston  2 L -
RUTAN 61 Long-EZ  LGEZ Landplane  Piston  1 L   
RUTAN 77 Solitaire  SOLI Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN 151 Ares  ARES Landplane  Jet  1 L -
RUTAN 202 Boomerang  BOOM Landplane  Piston  2 L -
RUTAN 27 VariViggen  VVIG Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN 318 White Knight  WHKN Landplane  Jet  2 M -
RUTAN White Knight  WHKN Landplane  Jet  2 M -
RUTAN Boomerang  BOOM Landplane  Piston  2 L -
RUTAN Cozy  COZY Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN Defiant  DEFI Landplane  Piston  2 L -
RUTAN Long-EZ  LGEZ Landplane  Piston  1 L   
RUTAN Proteus  PRTS Landplane  Jet  2 L -
RUTAN Solitaire  SOLI Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN VariEze  VEZE Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN VariViggen  VVIG Landplane  Piston  1 L -
RUTAN 281 Proteus  PRTS Landplane  Jet  2 L -
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 04:05:16 PM by go ez »

Offline flyingwaldo

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2008, 06:34:43 PM »
What is your source?  The FAA sites only show 3....?

Offline go ez

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 10:23:38 AM »

Offline flyingwaldo

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2008, 11:25:56 AM »
I've found that 'fill in the blanks' form and can't get it tell me anything. 
I did get this from an RV guy today and found the Long EZ.  This is an FAA document updated this year:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/Basic7340.2.pdf

Rutan and derivatives are on page 5-1-55
RUTAN
151 Ares L1J/Lt ARES
202 Boomerang L2P/Lt BOOM
Cozy L1P/Lt COZY
40 Defiant L2P/Lt DEFI
61 LongEZ L1P/Lt LGEZ
77 Solitaire L1P/Lt SOLI
33 VariEze L1P/Lt VEZE
27, 32 VariViggen L1P/Lt VVIG
M309 L2P/L M309
281 Proteus L2J/Lt PRTS


Offline Radioflyer

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2008, 07:23:08 PM »
A few months ago the flight briefer asked for my designator and since I didn't know he assigned a catchall designation. I forgot what it was. Later I did research it in the faa website and found that the correct designation was, in fact, LGEZ. I've used that several times and it is readily accepted by the briefer. I think the correct faa link is as above, as posted by Flyingwaldo.

Offline Spodman

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 05:52:10 AM »
Quote
...he assigned a catchall designation. I forgot what it was.
Probably would have been HXB, good for the Long, the Vari or the Cozy. Only good for the US. I expect a no-more-than-usally-ignorant ATC would prefer this to the specific ICAO designator, or you can use the specific to educate them!

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/acdesig_c.html
Mark Spedding - Darraweit Guim Australia
COZY Wannabe

Offline flyingwaldo

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 10:19:39 PM »
Spodman may be right here.  Though I have used LGEZ and never been questioned this is what I get on the new AOPA flight planner I'm beta testing: 

The specified FAA designator cannot be validated against the list of available aircraft. If you use this designator and it is not a valid aircraft designator, you may have difficulty filing flight plans.

Do you want to continue with this designator?

(For a list a valid type designators, see the listing at AOPA Online.)


Using one of the other 3 HX- designators doesn't generate this warning.  I'll ask the programmers.

Offline Spodman

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 07:41:06 PM »
A bit more reading by me and a chilling picture emerges. The document quoted is 7110.65, an FAA document that seems to have deleted ALL experimental types, except for Zenair. I don't really know how your system works, but I expect the meaning is that only factory aircraft now have a designator that is valid for an FAA flight plan, otherwise use the experimental designators as linked by me. LGEZ and all the others are not valid. They are all still listed in ICAO DOC 8643, so would be valid in an ICAO flight plan, but not for your domestic format, (which I believe is almost identical).

Enjoy.
Mark Spedding - Darraweit Guim Australia
COZY Wannabe

Offline flyingwaldo

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 11:06:40 PM »
Well, let's see what the documents are called and thier dates:

6/5/08 JO 7340.2
5-1
Chapter 5. Aircraft Type Designators

vs.

2/14/08 JO 7110.65S
Aircraft Information SpecificHomebuilt/Experimental Aircraft Appendix C-1
Appendix C. Aircraft Information
SpecificHomebuilt/Experimental Aircraft

I have to go with the document dated more recently and the chapter called "Designators" but would really appreciate an FAA referee to step in and clear this up!


Offline alcornl

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2008, 04:25:28 PM »
LGEZ VEZE are all valid FAA aircraft designators.  The ones listed in the 7110.65 appendix c are just general for experiments. 

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/Atc/Appendices/atcapdc.html#atcapdc.html.1
Here is the main link the the 7110.65  http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/Atc/
The aircraft listed in appendix A have not been updated in years.  These are considered the official FAA lists, but everything is going to ICAO. 

The FAA contractions order 7340.2 lists all aircraft and ICAO weight standards.
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/CNT/CNTHME.htm

Chapter 5 section 1 is where you can search by manufacturer.
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/CNT/5-1.htm

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/CNT/5-1-R.htm   for Rutan and they are listed there.
They even have the ares and proteus in there.

I am an enroute center controller, and our computers will take any 4 letter or number combination, so you can put anything in.  Some controllers do not even know the HXA, HXB, or HXC.  They will just put in EXP for your type aircraft.  It is nothing more than education. 

I kept getting confused at work when a pilot kept calling and saying he was a tango 2.  To me that meant T-2 "buckeye", the old navy single engine jet trainer.   Then I remembered that there is a company in Williston florida that makes the Tango 2, kind of like a lancair.  His official ICAO identifier is TAGO.  If he would have said experimental, it would have clued me in a little faster, since we have tons of navy trainer in my airspace.  Hope this clears it up.  You can keep filling LGEZ, you may just have to educate some people at FSS that are putting it in.  Remember that since FSS is contracted out, they are hiring people off the street that barely knows the difference between a 747 and a C172, unless a rutan design. 
As far as the AOPA flight planner, it appears they have that linked to the limited 7110.65 database which is selectively updated and I do not know why.   
The contractions order also have every other aviation contraction you could ever want, plus a list of Nationality designators for tail numbers and other good information.  Enjoy.


Offline flyingwaldo

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2008, 08:33:49 AM »
I'd like to thank the Center Controller for clearing this up.  It seems that the simple 3 are used if nothing else applies and are in fact listed in the same chapter and same document as the long list of most all aircraft, which is dated 9/2008:
Chapter 5. AIRCRAFT TYPE DESIGNATORS

Section 1 ENCODE  (Listed by Manufacturer, has 10 Rutan Designs  ;D)

Section 2 DECODE  (Listed by designator)

Section 3 HOMEBUILTS/EXPERIMENTAL  (the simple 3)

Thanks again! 

Offline Drew

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2008, 09:42:56 PM »
Oh---and a Buckeye has two engines
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline flyingwaldo

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 10:39:39 PM »
And a Center Controller is going to know that ....how?   ???

Thanks again Alcornl.  Don't mind the unecessary critique.  Your input was very helpful, unlike other things that occasionally get posted....
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 08:34:21 AM by flyingwaldo »

Offline alcornl

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Re: Aircraft Designator
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 11:03:54 AM »
Oh, I'm a rarity of center controllers.  I'm a CFI in airplanes and helos and have been building glass planes since I could stir an expoy pot.  Most do not know many type airplanes, but if you can quote to them the book to look it up in, it always helps to educate the controllers, but in a nice way.  As I said, we can put anything that is a combination of 4 numbers or letters in the type aircraft field of the flight plan.  So can FSS and roach controls.
I also just tried a non 7110.65 AID (aircraft ID) LNC2 for the lancair 360 with the AOPA new online flight planner and the old one, and it took with no complaints.  The is because it used DUATS, and I know that DUATS never cares.
Safe flights and blue skys.
Luke Alcorn
NATCA ZJX Safety Rep
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 11:13:25 AM by alcornl »