Author Topic: LEZ Basic Empty Weight  (Read 15258 times)

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Offline Radioflyer

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« on: November 08, 2005, 10:28:14 PM »
I've come across a good looking LongEz with a basic IFR panel and O-235L2C. I'ld love to buy it, but I'm a little leary of its Basic Empty weight. The certification plaque says 953, but I think I saw something in a weight & balance calculation saying it was more like 980 pounds. My intuition is that I willl be flying with a noticeable penalty in range, payload capacity, flying speed, and/or "stallling" speed.

So this is a judgement call...is it prudent to buy a nicely built plane that is on the heavy side or would I be better off finding something, even if less nicely finished, weighing between a more normal 830 to 875 pounds (for an L2C)? I know there is no clear answer to this issue, but comments would be appreciated.

Offline Waiter

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2005, 06:03:23 AM »
Your Call!

My O-320 with an 45lb MT prop weights in right at 1,000lbs.  

1,000 sounds heavy for an O-235, but I guess it depends whats in it.

Weight has a significant impact on performance, particularly takeoff/landing with a fized pitch prop, and more significantly with a O-235 vs a O-320.

Waiter
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Offline Drew

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2005, 07:29:49 AM »
My 0320 Longez was about 975.  This included the extra wt I had to carry upfront in my short nose to balance things out.
I was not that happy in the summer months taking off out of short fields.  I did not realize how unhappy I was until I put an 0320 on.  I would either get one with an 0320----or get one with no engine----or a wornout 0235---then trade up.

The plane sounds a little heavy for an 0235---but what does it have in it?  Short noses and light pilots are going to have heavier airplanes due to the extra lead up front.  If you don't have a lightwt starter, that will really make your airplane heavy (lots of balance in the nose.  Sloppy builds with too much epoxy will also hurt.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Joe Dubner

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Re: LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2005, 07:51:38 AM »
Quote from: "Radioflyer"
My intuition is that I willl be flying with a noticeable penalty in range, payload capacity, flying speed, and/or "stallling" speed.


My O235-L2C Long-EZ is also nice-looking (but only VFR) and weighs 971 pounds.  Part of that weight increase is due to its nice finish (lots of filler and paint) and part is due to the heavy equipment I have installed (33 AH battery, large alternator, ham radio gear, large wheels/tires/pants, etc.)  Although YMMV lets address each of your concerns:

1.  range:  at 5 GPH in cruise, 140 KTAS, and 52 gallons of fuel possible, there's no penalty in range :-)  The airplane will fly longer than I care to.

2.  payload capacity:  my lady friend and I are both "lightweights" -- not over 300 pounds between both of us.  Takeoff and climb performance are noticeable degraded (dual with a big fuel load and luggage) but still very decent although it doesn't do well above 12,500 MSL until shedding some fuel wieght.  With no luggage and medium fuel (e.g. out for a $50 hamburger) there's no issue.  Solo under those circumstances, well ... it's a rocket!

3.  flying speed:  weight isn't much of a factor in the induced drag required to compensate for the additional wight.  My R.A.C.E. results were pretty decent with speeds of 185 - 190 mph.

4.  "stalling speed":  all I know is the IAS when I get the pitch bob -- about 63 mph (working from memory here) which seems pretty standard.  (I realize IAS != CAS at this AOA.)

That said, of course I'd like better climb performance.  OTOH, I really like my "creature comforts" and the look of the nice finish on the airplane.  Except for takeoff performance on shorter runways at higher density altitude,  the climb performance is at least adequate (and often very good).

Of course, an O320 would let me have my cake and eat it too <g>.
Joe Dubner
Independence, OR
Aircraft with APRS:
http://209.237.86.241/cgi-bin/everyone.cgi?aprs=1

Offline Radioflyer

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2005, 07:52:35 AM »
My guess is that the extra weight comes from saturated layups and lots of filler in the finish. The plane's finish is beautiful like a high gloss surfboard. Nicely crafted plane.
The engine has no lightweight components...stock starter, alternator, vacuum pump, mags,etc. I don't recall seeing any lead ballast in the nose. The panel has Nav, Com, Loran, Autopilot, Attitidue & Directional gyros, and the standard flight and engine steam guages. Nose lift is stock wind-up.
The thing is that if I put light stuff on the engine and lighten up a few things, the max I think I can loose is about 20 pounds. However, that's a WAG.

Offline Drew

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2005, 11:14:03 AM »
Joe's writeup is very good

In a short nose, the lead weight is forward of the battery.  A stock starter (like a prestolite) is way too heavy.  If you buy that plane, get rid of the starter and put on a skytec or B&C or you can even make brackets for a Honda starter.  The prestolite type starter has to weigh 15 or more lbs---which of course means that you have to balance that on the front end too.

Number of flight hours on the airframe is important (ones that don't have much flight time may have problems----ones that do have lots of flight time are proven) as well as builder/seller reputation.  If the builder/seller seems slimy---run.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline wvshoem

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2005, 11:29:13 AM »
Your guess of about 20 pounds is right on. I replaced my Prestolite satrter and alternator with automotive versions for a difference of 20 pounds. Replacing mags with electronic ignition will help a little.

Although you won't get your O235 L2C to run with an O320, you can certainly make some significant improvements to it. I installed 10:1 pistons, balanced, ported and polished, have electronic ignition and will have ram air on my O235. None of these things adds any weight (infact it reduces it some), but there can be a significant horsepower increase. Mine hasn't flown yet, bet the gentleman that rebuilt my engine insists I'll see nearly 150 hp. We'll see.

Offline Bruce Hughes

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buying a Longeze
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2005, 12:42:49 PM »
Hi.  The 320 is pretty much standard for Longezes.   Do NOT (I mean NOT)
buy the 235 equipped Longeze with the thought of rebuilding the engine
to get more horsepower.   The cost is not worth it.   10:1 compression
will cause serious stress on the engine.   Either buy the 235 and fly it
(less fuel needed) or find a 320 to buy.

DO plan to use electronic ignition (and one mag)(or EI both sides).

DO plan to use an Ellison throttle body OR fuel injection.

2 cents from a non-expert........   Learned the hard way.

Bruce Hughes
Yelm, WA
Longeze N199BH
retired
taught at Maui Community College

Offline Drew

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2005, 03:36:33 PM »
I have heard about problems with the hi-compression 0235.  I actually had one----had lots of problems---but most of the probs I had were cooling----which eventually failed several cylinders.  I eventually replaced the 0235 (because the cam lobes were shot) with an O320 and went to downdraft.  I never really got to experience the high compression probs due to the cooling problems masking any symptoms.

I did however have 10:1 in my O320.  Cooling was VERY good----and I did not appear to have any problems (ran it for several hundred hours).

Making a long nose will make your wt go down also
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Radioflyer

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LEZ Basic Empty Weight
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2005, 07:43:04 PM »
All of these responses to my inquiry have been exceptionally good food for thought. It sounds like the "heavy" will not be the tremendous dissapointment I thought it might be IF I don't mind sacrificing some climb rate. I can probably improve the situation by 20 pounds at least.
I'm glad there are several of you out there with heavier birds, but still satisfied. Thanks for speaking up.
I'll have to stick with an O-235. I think its all I can afford considering that  the spending won't stop with merely purchasing the plane. Lightweight starter, alternator, Electronic ignition, Ellison....

Offline easyrider

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LEZ Basic empty weight
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2005, 09:03:49 PM »
I have a LongEZ with a O-235L2C and it weighs 970 lbs.
I regularly fly over max wt. with a passenger and fuel for a decent trip.
It's a bit sluggish getting out of high density alt. airfields but flies great.
I have a Cato 3 blade 58x66. I cruise at 140 kts @ 6gph and 2580 rpm.
My weight is due to cockpit trim and decent seats and if you fly it within the "envelope" it is perfectly satisfactory.
Easyrider

Offline Drew

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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2005, 09:53:30 PM »
Double check the starter---make sure it is light weight---make sure you take care of this first.  The alternator should be ok.  You can live with mags---and trade up when you get an inflow of cash.  The carb will be fine too-----fuel injection is good too---but you can wait for the cash.  You never said if it were a short or long nose---but you can get some perf gains (drop some weight) by making it longer.

Make sure that you check the CG---make sure it is set up for your weight.  If the pilot you are buying from is lighter than you, then the plane will get lighter as you offload ballast.  If he is heavier than you, then you will be adding weight.

The lighter the plane, the more fun it is to fly.  15 gallons and solo, the plane is a screamer---and quite maneuverable.  Put a passenger and lots of gas, the plane becomes very "truckish".

My Cozy MKIV is faster and much more maneuverable than my Longez was. Unfortunately, it uses more runway too.  Can't get into the 2000ft strips like I could in a Longez (and you will probably not be able to do it with your 0235---solo maybe).
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline arjrmiller

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LEZ Empty Weight
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2005, 10:09:31 AM »
Drew,

You said the Cozy MkIV is faster than the LEZ.  In your opinion, is it all due to bigger motor, or the Cozy MkIV somehow more aerodynamically efficient than the LEZ?  

Put another way, how would the speeds of a MkIV with O-320 compare to an LEZ with O-320 assuming they were the same weight and similarly outfitted with wheelpants, etc.?

Does anyone know how the Cozy III compares in the same discussion?
And yes, I know that the speed differences normally may not make a huge difference in actual day to day trips.


Thanks,
Goose
(obviously trying to decided between a Long EZ and a Cozy)

Offline Glider pilot

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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2005, 10:40:53 AM »
Who says there cozy is faster than a long? Want to Race for Pinks? My IO 360 long eze against your IO 360 cozy. If you can't see 210 Knots then you best stay home! Yes Knots!

Offline Drew

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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2005, 06:39:52 PM »
Ah---you didn't really read my post, did you?  I said MY Cozy MkIV is faster and more maneuverable than MY Longez.  My Cozy has a O-360 and my Long had a O320.  Generally speaking, the Cozys have more potential to go faster due to its more cleaner lines.  The fuselage transition to the engine is much more cleaner in the Cozy due to the whole engine can "hide" back there whereas the Longez needs to "bump out".  Some Longez guys have been very good at minimizing this bumpout region to make them go fast---but the engine is wider than the fuselage.  The Cozy can generate stronger pitch, roll, and yaw rates.  The one that really matters is the roll rate.  Even though the Cozy has longer wings, I think it has a larger span aileron---and they are definitely more outboard.  The longer wings also give more yaw rate.  When you load up with lots of people, gas, stuff in the longez, it handles like a truck---sluggish in roll.  When you are light, it is quite spry in roll.  The Cozy is quite spry no matter how you load it.

Even though the Cozy is more maneuverable (and faster than my Long), I think I enjoyed flying the Longez more.  It was like strapping on a little fighter, could get in and out of 2000 ft strips, and lots of fun flying formation and sipped the gas.

Everyone that flys with me likes the Cozy better since they don't have to be stuck in back----and my wife enjoys that---and I needed the extra seats for an expanding family (+1).  While you had to be careful packing up the Longez for two (and it could be done), packing up the Cozy is a breeze.  The Cozy also sucks down more gas.

In general, I think you will find O320 Cozy IIIs outrunning O320 Longezs due to the aerodynamics.  However, you will always find an exception to the rule.  There are not that many O360 Longs out there compared to O320s/O235s.  You will find some very fast Longezs out there mostly due to builders who have spent careful attention to drag (cowl, cooling, sumps, gearleg fairings, wheelpants, transition zones, etc.)

I would not seriously race in either my Longez or my Cozy.  I have not invested that kind of time into those details to be competitive.

So in the end, it was the number of seats for me on why I got a Cozy----not the speed or maneuverability.

My Longez was dragger than most----and I would usually set 175mph IAS at all altitudes up to 10,000 ft----and still had more throttle to go.

On the Cozy, I usually put somewhere between 175-195mph IAS at all alts up to 10,000 ft---also with throttle still left.----So I guess I will have to stay at home and won't be able to come out and play  :(
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML